Barroom wisdom

[elberethe]

Joe,

I love that you admit that you believe everything is fair and no one needs special help/treatment, but to simply change their way of thinking and they too will join the ranks of the top 10% richest in society. I seriously wonder what percentile you fall in that you are so out of touch with the reality of the situation. I seriously doubt you are rich and yet your rabid defense of the well to do and callous disregard of the less fortunate leave me wondering what you believe the problem with the average struggling American to be. Do they just need to work more then their 40+ hour weeks? Get more then a Bachelor/Masters degree. Rise above the desperate mentality that would lead them to sign a home loan hoping they too can attain the American dream?

Your Barroom wisdom is just that. About the level of wisdom you would expect from a barroom. It was not written by a Professor of Economics www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/t/taxcuts.htm
If it even made half the sense it purports to make, I could begin to pick it apart and show you the falasy of the backwards "reasoning" in it. I find it HARD to believe someone such as you can't even see the basic error in this argument is that it is not a representation of our tax structure at all (which is unfair when you consider that those who have 10 million are of course going to pay more taxes then those who have 250,000 even in a flat tax scheme).

Without research, I dare say the richest people do not want a flat tax. Personally, I would like to see personal taxes done away with and a progressive sales tax. If I can afford to buy a Yacht and 10 million home then I should certainly be paying more taxes then someone who can barely make their mortgage or is still renting ffs!

I just can't even begin to get into the falicy of your argument and awaiting you telling me you were just joking when you posted this and seriously don't believe this load of crap you are peddling. Care to tell me your income bracket? Of course, I won't hold it against you if you don't, but I don't think even the elitests would try to peddle this nonsense so I am curious where you are coming from.

If you would really be interested in understanding the problems with our tax system, you have to first understand the distribution of wealth and the power of wealth to start. I recommend sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html as it has nice charts which make it a bit easier to picture.

Then you might want to get some economics classes under your belt (even early level classes say at the SRJC would really go a long way in helping you to make an honest argument for your position). I'm not saying I'm an expert, but trust me that you sound like a fool in this argument and I don't see you that way as you make other well-reasoned and sound arguments in other forums (political).

I hope I don't seem to hard but this is really my pet peeve. The economic situation in this country is dire and people who belittle it make me want to pull my hair out and gouge my eyes. You may doing quite well for yourself, but what you don't even see is that you are next. When you loose your job, home, car, etc. remember to just pick yourself up by the bootstrap and think happy thoughts about how you got rich the first time. It can happen again if you just believe in it! Yes, we can!

Please educate yourself on this subject. In the meantime, I look forward to reading more from you elsewhere.

[elberethe]

Jul 22, 2008 14:41:16 GMT -5 jgaffney said:

See? Right away, the flat tax argument starts to break down. Saunterelle claims that the kid born in the ghetto does not have the same opportunities as the kid born rich. As soon as the advocates start working for exemptions/advantages for their special interests, the whole idea of the flat tax goes out the window.

As it probably should! Are you saying you believe a kid born in the ghetto has the same opportunities as a kid born rich? Can you seriously say that with a straight face and then look at yourself in the mirror?

[elberethe]

Jul 21, 2008 18:22:17 GMT -5 harpman1 said:

He still has an equal opportunity as far as structural, institutional roadblocks placed in his path.

Lots of kids as you describe excel.

Lots of rich kids blow every advantage.

Frankly, the bad teachers are a product of govt. schools;
no role models is a product of govt. welfare, etc.

Govt. is not the solution, it is the problem; or at least the source of the problem.

Lots of underpriveledged kids excel? Your idea of lots and mine are way different or else you know something I don't. How about some figures to back up your claim of lots. Start with what you consider lots and then compare that to how many rich excel and tell me how there isn't a disparity there. Please factor in the % of rich kids vs underpriveledged as there is an obvious difference when you consider the priveledged kids make up only 10% of the population.

Given that, one would assume there are way more underpriveledged kids suceeding then rich kids .. they outumber rich kids 9 to 1. Guess what? They aren't succeeding in anywhere near those numbers. In fact, if you look it up you will might be surprised to find it is the exact opposite. 9 to 1 rich kids suceed complared to underpriveledged even tho there are so much fewer of them.

But you already knew that didn't you. No one could seriously not recognize the blatently obivous. I do believe you just kinda twisted it to fit your belief. Correct?

[subdjoe]

Eleberethe, first let me say that I know it wasn't written by a prof, I used snopes rather than truthorfiction. I just didn't bother to edit it before posting here. But I think it illustrates the levelers policy of punishing success and that somehow the person who earned ten bucks needs to give a buck to each of 9 people who didn't earn anything so everyone ends up with one buck.

Equality of opportunity does not mean equality of outcome. In a race all have the same chance to win, but only one does. Not everyone will join the super rich, there is luck involved in that, being in just the right place at the right time with the right idea or skill set.

What many of us are saying here is that if those in the ghettos can break out of the mentality of perpetual victimhood they too can attain a decent middle class standard of living. Or most of them can.Yeah, they would have to work at it. They would also have to reject the rantings of people like Jesse and Al who WANT them to be victims.

I like that you see things as either/or - people are either wallowing in the ghetto or are uber-rich plutocrats. They either run the country or are downtrodden and oppressed peaceloving peasants and workers. Sorry to burst your bubble, but there is a wide range in between your chosen poles.

None of us are saying that things are perfect. What many of us are saying is that much of the unfairness that the left rants about is often nothing more than rhetoric that misuses and confuses fact in order to keep people dissatsfied and perpetuate the cult of the victim. This allows the uber-rich leftists (DiFi, Boxer, Clinton, et al) to maintain the fiction that they are 'doing something' to help people, and at the same time let them feed at the public trough (keeping their wealth safe while trying to bring down those they disagree with). There are things that need to be fixed in this country. But taking everything and redistributing it equally to everyone is not the way to do it. Come to think of it, I don't see DiFi, Pelosi, et al. giving away almost all they own and living a subsistance level life style. Wonder why that is?

My own situation isn't that great right now, my wife hasn't worked in almost a year - got depressed after she got laid off - and some other things going on at the same time - so things are pretty lean right now. (If a friend hadn't already paid us for the fuel and expenses, we would not have been able to take our trip to Gettysburg this year. ) But, it isn't the system that is at fault. That is her being unable to get motivated, and me being unable to get her motivated.