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Post by The Big Dog on Jul 23, 2008 12:32:29 GMT -5
Hand over control to the Iraqis and use our troops in Afghanistan where they are needed. You aren't answering my question, if this is your answer. |
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Post by saunterelle on Jul 23, 2008 12:38:38 GMT -5
"How would it have been better to have simply withdrawn? "
Less American troops would be dead.
It gives the Iraqis the chance to step up and take control of their own country.
We could have focused our efforts where they are needed on the Afghanistan/Pakistan boarder.
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Post by The Big Dog on Jul 23, 2008 19:17:17 GMT -5
Less American troops would be dead. Maybe yes, maybe no. In the short term you might be right. However they would all have to go to Afghanistan until the peace at any cost crowd kicked up a big enough fuss to end that mission as well. In the meantime a total withdrawl would have left a vacuum that the Iranians would have happily stepped in to giving us a re-run of when, in the late 1970's, the ridiculously naive policies of the 39th president, James Earl Carter, left as his legacy the theocracy run by crazy mullahs that is present day Iran. Without Carter's assing up Iran the way he did the entire picture in the Middle East might be different today, what with Iran being (largely) the seat of power and driving force of Islamic extremist terrorism we face today. Which would have been, at the time, about as smart as putting poo in the punchbowl at a party. Once Saddam was toppled there needed to be a period of time where a new government could be formed and gain legitimacy with the Iraqi people. That took a decade for Germany and Japan post WW2, more or less. We are five years removed from active combat and the Iraqi government is on it's feet and gaining strength, and buy in from it's people, with each passing day. Except for what you read in US mainstream media outlets anyway. We've had people there all along. And having a larger number of forces on that border, which is just about the most rugged and inhospitable ground on the earth, would accomplish exactly no more than has been accomplished so far with the number of men engaged. That would be because the Pakistani government, while anxious to take our foreign aid and give lip service to battling terrorists, can't do a damned thing on their side of the border and won't let us in to do what needs to be done. So how would more boots on the ground in Afghanistan change that? |
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Post by Mink on Jul 23, 2008 23:07:06 GMT -5
If Bush were to withdraw the troops from Iraq tomorrow, and there was an immediate escalation of violence and thousands of innocents civilians killed by insurgents, what would Mink and Saunterelle say? If Obama wins the election and was to withdraw the troops from Iraq the day he took office, and there was an immediate escalation of violence and thousands of innocents civilians killed by insurgents, what would Mink and Saunterelle say? The Middle East would stay as is. In other words, they would still fight, kill, maim each other just as they have done for thousands of years. We were supposedly in the region to resolve 9/11. Since that hasn't been accomplished, we need to go back to where the terrorists were.....in Afghanistan. We also need to backtrack and remind the world community (diplomacy) that if they decline to get involved in the process, terrorism, will continue. Bush had bad policy and we will suffer from that, however, there is hope if[glow=red,2,300][/glow] Obama can turn this around and gain concerted effort with the world community, the mission can be foreseeable. Bush is leaving office with "mission impossible" no matter who wins in November. |
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Post by The Big Dog on Jul 24, 2008 11:20:53 GMT -5
The Middle East would stay as is. In other words, they would still fight, kill, maim each other just as they have done for thousands of years. Probably so, but there is still one less Hitler worshiping and murdering dictator, aka Saddam Hussein, actively and aggressively de-stabilizing the region. And that is a win no matter how you want to slice it. So you apparently missed the comments of Osama bin Laden himself who declared that Iraq was the front line of the war against the US? The Islamo-fascists do a fine job of that themselves... see Madrid, London and numerous other post 9/11 attacks across Europe, the Middle East and Africa. That many of the wool headed peace at any cost crazies running some of those countries continue to ignore it in the face of bloody attacks means your attempts at diplomacy would amount to little more than whistling in the wind. Oh yes, the great messianic rock star Obama. He of much talk and little action. He's going to speak to 100,000 in Berlin today... and more than a few people on the street over there think he is seriously reaching far above his place in politics to do so. While I can respect your ambition for "change", I think that in the final analysis you will be very unhappy at what the empty suit posturing of Mr. Obama will cost in treasure and lives. But then you'll have Republicans to blame it all on, so what the heck. |
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Post by crossride on Jul 24, 2008 11:29:05 GMT -5
Bush had bad policy and we will suffer from that, however, there is hope if Obama can turn this around and gain concerted effort with the world community, the mission can be foreseeable. Bush is leaving office with "mission impossible" no matter who wins in November. That's a mighty convinient thing to say. No matter who wins, if it goes bad, it's because Bush put us in a no win situation? I suppose no matter who wins in November, if things go well it will have nothing to do with anything Bush has done, right? I'm wondering what happens if Obama wins and makes no change in policy toward Iraq and things stay pretty much the same. What then? |
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Post by The New Guy on Jul 24, 2008 11:41:02 GMT -5
i understand that in the spirit of JFK obama will open his speech to the germans by saying....... "ich bin ein beginner!"  |
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Post by Mink on Jul 24, 2008 20:20:47 GMT -5
Obama was well received in Berlin today with 200,000 approx. Germans, with some waving American flags. Given the scene, I think Germany is just one example of how the world would love to love America again.......and because they are not Americans, it is complimentary and a hopeful sign of working together. Isn't that what we need now more than ever if we want to stop or control terrorism?
I thought I made myself crystal clear that Bush's bad policy/policies have messed it up for whoever follows. I don't hold Republicans, per se, responsible for them. I think there are some Republicans that can finally admit that Bush sold them out.
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Post by elberethe on Jul 30, 2008 23:27:57 GMT -5
I thought Sen. Obama promised to "Bring Our Troops Home?" It is easy to promise what you think Americans want to hear. He is trying to be a superstar so he can become the first black president. This serious conflicts with what is best for America. ;D That said, I supported the war in Iraq but for different reasons. At the time, I wanted Hussein removed and didn't care if we were lied to about the wmd's or not. I was thrilled by how quickly and efficiently our military accomplished that goal. Did I think any farther ahead then that? No. To my credit, I'm not Commander in Chief and so I'm a bit forgiving for my initial stupidity. I then went through a period of seriously questioning how anyone could not support our continued presence there considering what would happen if we left (and NO it wouldn't have given the Iraqi's a chance to take over on their own -- geesh, at least be intellectually honest). I also supported the surge, but again for different reasons. I too am tired of seeing our troops -- these brave young men and women lest we forget our troops are us and not just some political pawn -- killed trying to defend innocent civilians. Send more if that is what it takes to get the job done. Kill and root out all radicals. How can anyone say the surge didn't work? Obama sorta says it did without giving credit to the changes brought about by America's hard line stance. Like we are to really believe these political changes would have taken place without the surge? Again, where is the honesty? Now, I think we need to stay. It is a critical time. There is hope they will be able to take over and defend themselves against the barrage of hostile forces vying for power in the power vacuum **America** created. We went there and we owe them to finish the job. However, I do now question if we should have ever went especially in light of the belief our next stop should be Afgahnistan. We aren't going to find Bin'Ladin there. We can't control Pakistan. We KNOW Pakistan and Iran are sticking the knife in our back every chance they get, but keep your friends closer and your enemies closer yet. WTF are we going to do there? I'm getting really confused by it all when it seems our own borders need protection. We get NO to little support from our "allys" and worse they blame us for everything going on while they are the ones closest to the problem. When did we get appointed Police of the World and why? It is a thankless job not to mention its cost. Why do we want that mantle when our problems here at home are multiplying expoentially. If European countries believe they can handle it so much better then America, then LET THEM. Secure OUR borders. Secure OUR Nation. Why should American taxpayers support a Global Military? These are OUR boys ffs. Bring em home as soon as we fulfill our obligation to the people in Iraq for the MESS we made there! |
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Post by elberethe on Jul 30, 2008 23:36:52 GMT -5
Obama was well received in Berlin today with 200,000 approx. Germans, with some waving American flags. Given the scene, I think Germany is just one example of how the world would love to love America again.......and because they are not Americans, it is complimentary and a hopeful sign of working together. Isn't that what we need now more than ever if we want to stop or control terrorism? Isn't that how Germans welcomed Hitler? Besides, weren't the Germans really there for a concert and Obama was the cover-charge to get in? I lived in Germany for 4 years and let me assure you that Germans don't like anything about America and this didn't start in Bush's (Sr or Jr) term. Don't fool yourself. |
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Post by mrroqout on Jul 31, 2008 16:27:57 GMT -5
I thought Sen. Obama promised to "Bring Our Troops Home?" It is easy to promise what you think Americans want to hear. He is trying to be a superstar so he can become the first black president. This serious conflicts with what is best for America. ;D Too bad he isn't even legally "Black"...but in continuing with his lies he keeps at it as a "black" man. LOLOL Funny the MEDIA KNOWS FULL WELL HE IS ARAB AND NOT BLACK yet they wont touch that with a 75,000,000 foot pole.....yeah the Liberal Media outlets never manipulate anything now then do they.. Barack Hussein will be the first ARAB AMERICAN president if he is elected. The Liars background is: Caucasian from his mother Arab African from his father Before all the Obamiacs jump on the answer, the Kenyan Obamas are listed in the Kenyan census as Arab African not as Tribal 'Black' African. His father's great great grandmother was a Tribal African,. Therefore by ethnic lines the liar is 50% Caucasian, 43.75% Arab, and 6.25% Black African (from where the Senator gets his skin pignmentation). By the way according to US Federal Minority law, a person claiming minority status has to have 1/8 minority heritage. Barack Obama has 1/16 or 6.25% so he could never be called African American or Black American.........DOH...Someone should tell him this!!!! |
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Post by saunterelle on Jul 31, 2008 17:10:36 GMT -5
Why do you care what his race is?
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