What good are gun laws anyway?

[The Big Dog]

It's not like those who criminally misuse firearms were obeying the laws in the first place. And while the linked article has a law enforcement focus, it points out a couple of things that are downright chilling.

New findings from FBI about cop attackers and their weapons

New findings on how offenders train with, carry and deploy the weapons they use to attack police officers have emerged in a just-published, 5-year study by the FBI.

Among other things, the data reveal that most would-be cop killers:

--show signs of being armed that officers miss;

--have more experience using deadly force in “street combat” than their intended victims;

--practice with firearms more often and shoot more accurately;

--have no hesitation whatsoever about pulling the trigger. “If you hesitate,” one told the study’s researchers, “you’re dead. You have the instinct or you don’t. If you don’t, you’re in trouble on the street….”

<< snipped >>

Researcher Davis, in a presentation and discussion for the International Assn. of Chiefs of Police, noted that none of the attackers interviewed was “hindered by any law--federal, state or local--that has ever been established to prevent gun ownership. They just laughed at gun laws.”

<< snipped >>

The offenders were of a different mind-set entirely. In fact, Davis said the study team “did not realize how cold blooded the younger generation of offender is. They have been exposed to killing after killing, they fully expect to get killed and they don’t hesitate to shoot anybody, including a police officer. They can go from riding down the street saying what a beautiful day it is to killing in the next instant.”

“Offenders typically displayed no moral or ethical restraints in using firearms,” the report states. “In fact, the street combat veterans survived by developing a shoot-first mentality. "

As Matt Toste found out in a Santa Rosa garage one night going on two years ago.

[subdjoe]

Big Dog, restrictive gun laws make us FEEL safe! And feeling is reality, don't you know. All this study will do is make the anti-civil rights crowd, Obama, Boxer, Difi, Woolsye, et. al even more strident about passing more "common sense gun laws to get guns off the streets." And they will pick the easy target, the honest gun owner. Maybe the NEXT law they pass will be the one the thugs follow. Or the one after that.

Two bits I'm surprised you clipped:

Predominately handguns were used in the assaults on officers and all but one were obtained illegally, usually in street transactions or in thefts. In contrast to media myth, none of the firearms in the study was obtained from gun shows.

and

Nearly 40% of the offenders had some type of formal firearms training, primarily from the military. More than 80% “regularly practiced with handguns, averaging 23 practice sessions a year,” the study reports, usually in informal settings like trash dumps, rural woods, back yards and “street corners in known drug-trafficking areas.”

One spoke of being motivated to improve his gun skills by his belief that officers “go to the range two, three times a week [and] practice arms so they can hit anything.”

In reality, victim officers in the study averaged just 14 hours of sidearm training and 2.5 qualifications per year. Only 6 of the 50 officers reported practicing regularly with handguns apart from what their department required, and that was mostly in competitive shooting.

So, more lies by the powerful and well financed anti-civil rights liberal capons exposed (gun shows as a major source of guns for criminals), and what do you want to bet that the main stream media does not pick this up and publish it?

And, as I have said, cops need to practice a whole lot more. I've been saying this for years. You can't practice an averages of about 1 1/4 hours per month and expect to be proficient. Looks like the thugs practice a couple of times a month.

Did you post to the PD forum too? If not, you should. Get a discussion going over there.

[surefire]

Gun laws make the extreme folks feel good, and happy.

Afterall, guns are evil and CAUSE people to act naughty.

It is the gun's fault, NOT the users.

If there were no guns, everyone would be dancing around in a circle and hugging each other.

<sarcasm intented>

[The Big Dog]

Aug 17, 2008 9:46:35 GMT -5 subdjoe said:

Big Dog, restrictive gun laws make us FEEL safe! And feeling is reality, don't you know.

Maybe they make you[/i] FEEL safe...

All this study will do is make the anti-civil rights crowd, Obama, Boxer, Difi, Woolsye, et. al even more strident about passing more "common sense gun laws to get guns off the streets." And they will pick the easy target, the honest gun owner. Maybe the NEXT law they pass will be the one the thugs follow. Or the one after that.

I'm actually kind of thinking that, while they won't stop trying completely, they are not going to be trying as hard. The issue won't win them any elections, as was proven in 1994, 1996 and 2000. It's why first John Kerry and now Barack Obama have tried to paint themselves on the stump as friend to the gun owner, when they are anything but.

Two bits I'm surprised you clipped:

I posted it at a couple of other places as well and at one them a strict limit on word count for excerpts is enforced (I'm a moderator there) to avoid issues with copyright infringement.

So, more lies by the powerful and well financed anti-civil rights liberal capons exposed (gun shows as a major source of guns for criminals), and what do you want to bet that the main stream media does not pick this up and publish it?

That's what I've always enjoyed about your writing... able to both ask and competently answer a question in the same sentence.

And, as I have said, cops need to practice a whole lot more. I've been saying this for years. You can't practice an averages of about 1 1/4 hours per month and expect to be proficient. Looks like the thugs practice a couple of times a month.

Some of the bad guys, as noted in the article, are practicing a couple of times a week, or more. Since the officer's ammo is paid for by the taxpayer, one thing that can get cut in tight budget times is ammo for training, although the downstream liability for shirking lethal force training scares more administrators than lack of budget does.

Back in the early 80's I had to shoot for score twice a year. Most of the guys didn't fire any more than that. There was very little training available in gunfighting tactics and in street survival skills. Myself and some of the other "gunnies" were shooting at least a couple times a month, going out of pocket for our ammo, not just to stay sharp but to have fun as well. We played what if's and set up scenarios before it became popular. As an aside I am writing an article for submission to American Rifleman on what was, and still is, my constant companion from back in those days... which I still have and will never part with.

Did you post to the PD forum too? If not, you should. Get a discussion going over there.

Fat lot of good it would do. Some teenaged jack ass would insert the "I" word into it and it would devolve into childish bickering. I'm about done with that cesspool. If you want to post it over there, by all means please do.

[crossride]

I agree 100% with the Big Dog on this issue. But I wanted add in my own somewhat scary facts about local officers and training. For the most part, smaller agencies in this area don't even shoot for score in actual qualifying. As long as they are not a complete disaster, no one cares. Many officers I saw were not very good shots in the pressure scenarios put on. The agency I'm most familliar with did have its officers at the range four times a year, but to the best of my knowledge, no one above the rank of line officer was ever "forced" to make all four (or in some cases, even one) sessions, nor was any attempt made to "make up" a session if you were unable to make it once. Nor was anyone really asked to show true profiency. Just go, shoot, and you're good.

And as far as ammo goes, that WAS the first thing to be cut back. Four hour range session, 100 rounds of ammo. Plus a dozen or so shotgun shells. Whoopie! Many officers love to shoot and still do quite a bit on the side at their own expense, but far too many these days get precious little practice, and too many (and one is too many) don't even take what they get seriously.

[subdjoe]

I know what you mean, Crossride. The only cops, as a group, around here that can shoot worth a damn are the members of the Petaluma SWAT. Some of the others had a few officers who could shoot pretty well. but in general they really sucked.

[The Big Dog]

That is a little scary. A hundred rounds plus a couple tubefulls through the shotgun is nothing. And I know the POST standard for patrol rifle is minimal at best, being left largely to the agencies to develop their own standards. At my last agency we were firing our sidearms quarterly and our shotguns only once per year. We were also doing physical methods of arrest, AKA defensive tactics, only once per year. Add to that the POST "perishable skills" training and maybe it makes a dent but only a small one. I argued constantly that it wasn't enough but a small agency with minimal funding is only going to be able to go so far.

So I always went out and fired more on my own. My favorite Model 19 revolver has something more than 25K rounds through it, and I quit carrying that on the street in 1992. That was how much I shot. And those of us who were more interested in staying alive that in collecting our check every two weeks practiced weapon retention, hand to hand, PMA as much as time allowed. In one way it sucks to have to rely on your own wallet and those of your friends / co-workers, but it sucks a lot worse to end the shift early because you got killed.

[harpman1]

Bulk & reloaded ammo; CMP or online sellers,

Local club membership; available & reasonable,

IDPA every month; 'cuz it surprises you safely,

Taking practice seriously; priceless.

[crossride]

Sometimes it was hard to get the time and/or money to go shooting very often, but I made it a habit to at least do some dry fire drills the day or night before my "monday". DT was twice yearly, and my agency did try to train as often as possible but its not always easy to get everyone through. I also practiced DT at home... I now wonder if that's why I ended up getting a divorce....

[The Big Dog]

Aug 17, 2008 22:06:18 GMT -5 harpman1 said:

Bulk & reloaded ammo; CMP or online sellers,

Reloads... Load-X in Santa Rosa.

Online resellers are no longer the bargain they used to be between rising cost of ammo across the board, shipping and hazmat fees.

[surefire]

Where are you all finding Load-X?

I haven't seen these in gun stores in ages.

I've been told that the quality is slipping everytime I've asked about why stores don't carry them now.

[The Big Dog]

They're still on Dutton and I believe they are open during business hours Monday through Friday... most of the time anyway.

I've had better luck with Load-X than I've had with Miwall which seems to be the ammo du jour at the gun shows lately.