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Post by subdjoe on Oct 22, 2008 19:37:46 GMT -5
Surefire, I'm sure you are familiar with this:
Of false Ideas of Utility.
A principal source of errors and injustice are false ideas of utility. For example: that legislator has false ideas of utility who considers particular more than general conveniencies, who had rather command the sentiments of mankind than excite them, and dares say to reason, `Be thou a slave'; who would sacrifice a thousand real advantages to the fear of an imaginary or trifling inconvenience; who would deprive men of the use of fire for fear of their being burnt, and of water for fear of their being drowned; and who knows of no means of preventing evil but by destroying it.
The laws of this nature are those which forbid to wear arms, disarming those only who are not disposed to commit the crime which the laws mean to prevent. Can it be supposed, that those who have the courage to violate the most sacred laws of humanity, and the most important of the code, will respect the less considerable and arbitrary injunctions, the violation of which is so easy, and of so little comparative importance? Does not the execution of this law deprive the subject of that personal liberty, so dear to mankind and to the wise legislator? and does it not subject the innocent to all the disagreeable circumstances that should only fall on the guilty? It certainly makes the situation of the assaulted worse, and of the assailants better, and rather encourages than prevents murder, as it requires less courage to attack unarmed than armed persons.
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Post by The Big Dog on Oct 22, 2008 20:52:44 GMT -5
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Post by Mink on Oct 22, 2008 21:22:39 GMT -5
I usually don't participate on this topic because I see a gun as a useful tool and/or a danger to society.
In regards to a gun on school property, I can see a gun saving many lives used in defense of a person who has mentally lost it and threatening many lives. a gun for the teacher's use could hurt people by the teacher missing the target and hitting a student, or a student who is mental in class and knows of the gun in the drawer and uses it on the classroom. Parents could sue if their child is in danger even if they hadn't been hurt or killed. Can you imagine the future of education in general?
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Post by surefire on Oct 22, 2008 21:55:48 GMT -5
I usually don't participate on this topic because I see a gun as a useful tool and/or a danger to society. In regards to a gun on school property, I can see a gun saving many lives used in defense of a person who has mentally lost it and threatening many lives. a gun for the teacher's use could hurt people by the teacher missing the target and hitting a student, or a student who is mental in class and knows of the gun in the drawer and uses it on the classroom. Parents could sue if their child is in danger even if they hadn't been hurt or killed. Can you imagine the future of education in general? You raise good points about stray bullets. Having said that, the goal of issuing a CCW should be to be sure that the licensee is trained in proper decision making... knowing when a shot is safe to take, etc. No training is 100 percent fail proof, but good training helps the odds. |
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Post by subdjoe on Oct 22, 2008 22:33:25 GMT -5
So, then Mink, you think that schools should be free fire safe zones for thugs?
How about cars in school parking lots? Some demented person could hot wire one and run down a bunch of kids.
What about natural gas, say in the chem labs? A deranged student could open a bunch of gas valves and create a FAE and blow up a wing of the school.
Or run an extention cord out and toss a toster into a pool.
Or tamper with a heater and cause CO to vent into the rooms and kill people.
See? Lots of stuff can be used by deranged people to cause harm.
I love that the antis (and, yes, Mink, deep down you seem to be one) always trot out the "well if a crazy/deranged/etc. person gets hold of the honest citizens gun something bad may happen" BS. It happens so rarely as to be statistically insignificant.
See the quote in my previous post.
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Post by Mink on Oct 22, 2008 22:59:59 GMT -5
So, then Mink, you think that schools should be free fire safe zones for thugs? How about cars in school parking lots? Some demented person could hot wire one and run down a bunch of kids. What about natural gas, say in the chem labs? A deranged student could open a bunch of gas valves and create a FAE and blow up a wing of the school. Or run an extention cord out and toss a toster into a pool. Or tamper with a heater and cause CO to vent into the rooms and kill people. See? Lots of stuff can be used by deranged people to cause harm. I love that the antis (and, yes, Mink, deep down you seem to be one) always trot out the "well if a crazy/deranged/etc. person gets hold of the honest citizens gun something bad may happen" BS. It happens so rarely as to be statistically insignificant. See the quote in my previous post. I read the thread and are well aware of your stance on guns subdjoe, which is another reason I don't participate. My point of view on guns is "on the fence" so to speak, but I took an example since it was posted regarding schools and that was my weee input. Please try and stick to the topic because the cars are for transportation to and from schools (unless we are talking Middle-school age and younger), materials in the science room are for teaching, so let's not get too carried away, ok? It is just my thought that with this sue-happy society we have grown to be, don't you think many parents would use it, regardless of how safe you feel guns can be? |
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Post by Mink on Oct 22, 2008 23:03:37 GMT -5
I usually don't participate on this topic because I see a gun as a useful tool and/or a danger to society. In regards to a gun on school property, I can see a gun saving many lives used in defense of a person who has mentally lost it and threatening many lives. a gun for the teacher's use could hurt people by the teacher missing the target and hitting a student, or a student who is mental in class and knows of the gun in the drawer and uses it on the classroom. Parents could sue if their child is in danger even if they hadn't been hurt or killed. Can you imagine the future of education in general? You raise good points about stray bullets. Having said that, the goal of issuing a CCW should be to be sure that the licensee is trained in proper decision making... knowing when a shot is safe to take, etc. No training is 100 percent fail proof, but good training helps the odds. Thank you for taking my point surefire! I'm just not so sure parents or the state/s would want to fund this kind of training. |
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Post by subdjoe on Oct 22, 2008 23:10:05 GMT -5
Mink wrote: "Please try and stick to the topic because the cars are for transportation to and from schools (unless we are talking Middle-school age and younger), materials in the science room are for teaching, so let's not get too carried away, ok?'
And guns carried by teachers are for keeping students and teachers safe.
You trotted out that tired old "What if..." bovine excrement. I pointed out the fallacy of it with examples of it applied to other potentially leathal objects. Misuse is misuse no matter if it is a gun or a fork or a car.
The logical extention of your reasoning is that guns are ONLY for thugs to harm people.
Why is it that you are always on people to "stick to the topic" or "not get too carried away" when your reasoning gets called?
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Post by surefire on Oct 22, 2008 23:17:36 GMT -5
You raise good points about stray bullets. Having said that, the goal of issuing a CCW should be to be sure that the licensee is trained in proper decision making... knowing when a shot is safe to take, etc. No training is 100 percent fail proof, but good training helps the odds. Thank you for taking my point surefire! I'm just not so sure parents or the state/s would want to fund this kind of training. I wouldn't want anyone being given a CCW that cannot safely handle a gun. As an NRA member, I take gun safely and responsibility very seriously. I think there is a middle ground... Any teacher with a current and valid CCW should have the option to carry. Under no circumstances should the gun be left in the classroom-- it needs to be securely on them at all times (to avoid students from getting access). Those that do not have CCWs should stay unarmed. |
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Post by Mink on Oct 22, 2008 23:24:58 GMT -5
Mink wrote: "Please try and stick to the topic because the cars are for transportation to and from schools (unless we are talking Middle-school age and younger), materials in the science room are for teaching, so let's not get too carried away, ok?' And guns carried by teachers are for keeping students and teachers safe. You trotted out that tired old "What if..." bovine excrement. I pointed out the fallacy of it with examples of it applied to other potentially leathal objects. Misuse is misuse no matter if it is a gun or a fork or a car. The logical extention of your reasoning is that guns are ONLY for thugs to harm people. Why is it that you are always on people to "stick to the topic" or "not get too carried away" when your reasoning gets called? Subdjoe, please loosen up, your defensiveness of this topic limits it and particpants too. I was on topic and schools were previously mentioned. Actually, my logic is that guns are more for a professionals like a police officer or a soldier or even a rancher. You do have to admit though that if guns were allowed in schools even with training, there would be a need add something to the law to keep parents from suing. Who knows there could be a child, like the one who killed animals to feed to the alligator, that would get into mischief, or would we have to train the children as well? Do you see where I am wondering how guns could be a danger to society, even thought they are a useful tool? |
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Post by Mink on Oct 22, 2008 23:28:34 GMT -5
Thank you for taking my point surefire! I'm just not so sure parents or the state/s would want to fund this kind of training. I wouldn't want anyone being given a CCW that cannot safely handle a gun. As an NRA member, I take gun safely and responsibility very seriously. I think there is a middle ground... Any teacher with a current and valid CCW should have the option to carry. Under no circumstances should the gun be left in the classroom-- it needs to be securely on them at all times (to avoid students from getting access). Those that do not have CCWs should stay unarmed. That makes sense, thank you surefire. |
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Post by surefire on Oct 22, 2008 23:34:19 GMT -5
I wouldn't want anyone being given a CCW that cannot safely handle a gun. As an NRA member, I take gun safely and responsibility very seriously. I think there is a middle ground... Any teacher with a current and valid CCW should have the option to carry. Under no circumstances should the gun be left in the classroom-- it needs to be securely on them at all times (to avoid students from getting access). Those that do not have CCWs should stay unarmed. That makes sense, thank you surefire. You're welcome. Actually, I think you're taking a moderate stance, and asking legitimate questions. |
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