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Post by Mink on Jun 8, 2008 21:25:17 GMT -5
Ferrous: "The Progressive movement and Democratic Solialists in this country are pretty much one in the same.
Dreamers. Interersting answer because isn't that what the forefathers of the country dreamed of when they invaded what they considered a free land onto themselves?
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Post by ferrous on Jun 9, 2008 7:34:21 GMT -5
I'm not quite sure what you’re referring to, Mink?
You mention; "Dreamers. Interersting answer because isn't that what the forefathers of the country dreamed of when they invaded what they considered a free land onto themselves?"
Was it “free land onto themselves” our "land for the taking?"
Didn't they have to go out into hostile territories and fight for this free land?
Didn’t the existing occupants fight to their death in trying to preserve their own way of life?
Wasn’t this “free land” won by either force or attrition?
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Post by subdjoe on Jun 9, 2008 8:54:04 GMT -5
Oh, good! I'm not the only one confused by Minks post. Is she saying that the first whites here were socialists? Well, some of them were levelers, but only to the extent of being able to tear down others and put themselves on top - using the wealth of others.
Mink, can you expand on that post a bit? Who are you calling dreamers? What do you think the dreams of the first white settlers were? Why used the emotionally charged word 'invaded'?
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Post by bagron3 on Jun 9, 2008 10:37:46 GMT -5
8-)It's fortunate we live in a democracy that seems to follow the pendulum theory. Swing left, swing right, swing low sweet chariot.(oopss... that's a song). We've been swinging right and now it looks as tho we will swing left.
Interesting that name calling seems to be prevalent on this sight. Maybe sticking to facts would be somewhat more interesting.
I see nothing wrong with either side. Each has it's points that will further our Democracy and each has love of country at the center of it's dogma.I think.
Fact: The Republicans have lead for 8 years. The local economy started going into the tank 3 years after the present administration took over. They took over a balanced federal budget and turned it once again into the largest deficit in history. Now some on the right don't think that is a bad thing. After all if you bankrupt the government, you will have to cut services and Repubs always go after social services and education.
Fact: We have more millionaires and the income divide is at an all time high. The rich have gotten richer and the poor....yep. The Global economy has been prevalent and with tax dollars no longer being collected from Corporations shifting operations off shore this trend will continue. Thank you NAFTA?
Fact: 47 million in this country have no insurance and another 16 million have inadequate insurance. This cost goes right to the taxpayer everytime one of these uninsured is forced to go to an emergency room. There are about 16 million who have Universal single payer health care and are completely happy with the results. Canadians, although technologically inferior to the US, are very happy with their system. %85 approve. Their drug cost are 30-70% cheaper than the U.S.There is a conservative movement in Canada to over turn the health care system. Won't happen.
Fact: The US bankruptcy rate amongst Seniors is at an all time high.The main reason for bankruptcy for Seniors in this country are healthcare cost.
Fact: Spending per capita on education is at an all time low. Regardless of what one may think of public education, it is the corner stone of Democracy. Both of my children went through public schools and are doing very well. But, education starts at home. The school supplied the tools and we(the parents) supplied the love and discipline. The present administration started a program that Ann Richards former Governor of Texas had begun in that state. "No Child Left Behind" started and touted by President Bush has been a dismal failure although it worked in Texas. Why? No funding.
Fact: The War. There were no WMD's and this war is a huge mistake. Planned to take over the Mideast oil fields and control world oil markets it has been a failure on that level. Protecting Israel and other Mideast allies is not an option with our forces concentrated in Iraq and soon, Iran. Saudi Arabia, an ally, is feeding the Iraq quagmire with no interference from the US. Is this worth over 4000 US dead and 20,000 permanent injured. Let's not forget over 200,000 Iraq citizens have died. Do they count?
Fact: Global Warming is real. (Just gnaw on that until I can get time to write it up).
O.k...I gotta go. Fodder for you.....Peace
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Post by saunterelle on Jun 9, 2008 11:55:03 GMT -5
Well said bagron, I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment.
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Post by bolverk on Jun 9, 2008 18:23:04 GMT -5
Ferrous: "The Progressive movement and Democratic Solialists in this country are pretty much one in the same. Dreamers. Interersting answer because isn't that what the forefathers of the country dreamed of when they invaded what they considered a free land onto themselves? Invaders? Based on what? Give me a break will ya'. There was not a military exodus, it was a migration, just like the people who were here before we arrived. |
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Post by bolverk on Jun 9, 2008 18:38:59 GMT -5
8-)It's fortunate we live in a democracy that seems to follow the pendulum theory. Swing left, swing right, swing low sweet chariot.(oopss... that's a song). We've been swinging right and now it looks as tho we will swing left. Interesting that name calling seems to be prevalent on this sight. Maybe sticking to facts would be somewhat more interesting. I see nothing wrong with either side. Each has it's points that will further our Democracy and each has love of country at the center of it's dogma.I think. Look harder. Fact: The Republicans have lead for 8 years. The local economy started going into the tank 3 years after the present administration took over. They took over a balanced federal budget and turned it once again into the largest deficit in history. Now some on the right don't think that is a bad thing. After all if you bankrupt the government, you will have to cut services and Repubs always go after social services and education. Not really, the Republicans did lead for some time, after they gained majorities in both the house and the senate under Bill Clinton. Who, by the way did not pass a single bill which he championed during his campaign. On the other hand, he gets all the economic growth credit for the actions taken by the house and senate, the only thing he did was to not veto the bills they passed. That is what was responsible for our economic growth, not his policies. But, most liberals/progressives/democrat voters do not understand how our government works, so they give credit to Bill. Prior to that it was virtually 40 years of Democrat rule. With the exception of the Presidency. Fact: We have more millionaires and the income divide is at an all time high. The rich have gotten richer and the poor....yep. The Global economy has been prevalent and with tax dollars no longer being collected from Corporations shifting operations off shore this trend will continue. Thank you NAFTA? True, but when you have 12 million people who come from third world countries illegally, and are counted among our poor, it is kind of hard to reflect how the people who belong here are doing. This problem began in 1967, when the democrats had the house, senate and presidency, passing riders on the civil rights bill to permanently alter our immigration laws in this nation. Now we are reaping the rewards, so to speak. Unfortunately, the rewards really aren't rewards, they are a false poverty level that belongs in other nations. Fact: 47 million in this country have no insurance and another 16 million have inadequate insurance. This cost goes right to the taxpayer everytime one of these uninsured is forced to go to an emergency room. There are about 16 million who have Universal single payer health care and are completely happy with the results. Canadians, although technologically inferior to the US, are very happy with their system. %85 approve. Their drug cost are 30-70% cheaper than the U.S.There is a conservative movement in Canada to over turn the health care system. Won't happen. Before insurance came on the scene, people got health care. The greatest damage done to health care has been done by insurance companies. Now you want the government to run it when they can't even adequately handle their responsibilities where Social Security is concerned? You are a fool if you believe they can fix this problem. Fact: The US bankruptcy rate amongst Seniors is at an all time high.The main reason for bankruptcy for Seniors in this country are healthcare cost. What happened to social security? It was created because of the level of seniors living in poverty, and no other reason. What you are saying, without knowing what your saying, is that social security is a failure. Fact: Spending per capita on education is at an all time low. Regardless of what one may think of public education, it is the corner stone of Democracy. Both of my children went through public schools and are doing very well. But, education starts at home. The school supplied the tools and we(the parents) supplied the love and discipline. The present administration started a program that Ann Richards former Governor of Texas had begun in that state. "No Child Left Behind" started and touted by President Bush has been a dismal failure although it worked in Texas. Why? No funding. Fact: too many administrators, not enough educators. Fact: The War. There were no WMD's and this war is a huge mistake. Planned to take over the Mideast oil fields and control world oil markets it has been a failure on that level. Protecting Israel and other Mideast allies is not an option with our forces concentrated in Iraq and soon, Iran. Saudi Arabia, an ally, is feeding the Iraq quagmire with no interference from the US. Is this worth over 4000 US dead and 20,000 permanent injured. Let's not forget over 200,000 Iraq citizens have died. Do they count? Though you misstate some numbers on the high side, the war may well have been a mistake. But, congress approved the war, time they took some responsibility for it as well. We should be in it to win and fix Iraq. Nothing else is acceptable. Fact: Global Warming is real. (Just gnaw on that until I can get time to write it up). I agree, global warming is real. We should fear global cooling more then global warming. But, most global warming is natural, and we contribute such a minute amount to it, that the drastic changes proposed would be disastrous in terms of loss of life and economies. O.k...I gotta go. Fodder for you.....Peace Offer something more challenging next time please. |
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Post by ferrous on Jun 10, 2008 8:09:17 GMT -5
Thanks to bolverk, I won't have to waste time going line for line with now bargon3's confusion.
I will comment on the statement "Global Warming is real.
For anyone in tune with this series of environmental weather patterns, the buzz word now is not "Global Warming" but Climate Change."
I wish they could explain to me why anyone would doubt that the earth climate temperature has been getting warmer for the last 60,000 years since the last Ice Age.
Yes, the earth is experiencing a global warming trend but just how much, man's production of CO2 has had an effect on it is still in question.
Besides, the earths environment is such that after every catastrophe so far, it is has always shown the ability to rejuvenate its self. Again, man's self ego and the importance he places upon himself in this world have and will have little lasting effect on the continuation of this planet.
One way or another, long after mankind is gone, this planet will still be here in some shape or form.
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Post by subdjoe on Jun 10, 2008 19:02:24 GMT -5
Bolverk wrote: " The greatest damage done to health care has been done by insurance companies. "
Yes and no. The greatest damage done to health care is the litigiousness of our society. Not 100% satisfied? Sue the doctor, sue the hospital. Demand outrageous damages. So, what happens, a LOT of unnecessary tests get run. Doctors, hospitals, pharacuitcal companies have to carry obscene amounts of insurance and spend big bucks for lawyers. And who pays for all of this? Yep - we do. Either in inceased fees to the doctors, outrageous insurance premiums, or both. Get the lawyers out of it and medical costs will drop drastically.
Of course, with over 100k accidental/preventable deaths in hospitals every year (not deaths of those who are in such bad shape that their survival is questionalbe anyway, but deaths from mistakes, infections, etc. that were preventable), maybe going to the doctor or hospital isn't such a good thing.
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Post by Mink on Jun 11, 2008 23:15:37 GMT -5
...and all this started with Saunterelle's confusion. Hhmmmm  |
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Post by Mink on Jun 11, 2008 23:38:32 GMT -5
Oh, good! I'm not the only one confused by Minks post. Is she saying that the first whites here were socialists? Well, some of them were levelers, but only to the extent of being able to tear down others and put themselves on top - using the wealth of others. Mink, can you expand on that post a bit? Who are you calling dreamers? What do you think the dreams of the first white settlers were? Why used the emotionally charged word 'invaded'? I will reply on this one soon. I'm still recuperating from the weekend. It has nothing to do with "White"....funny how you interpreted. BTW, welcome bagron3 to the forum!! |
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Post by subdjoe on Jun 12, 2008 1:06:48 GMT -5
...and all this started with Saunterelle's confusion. Hhmmmm Yeah, funny how adult conversations wander. |
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