Obama: Fear and the Security Force

[The New Guy]

santurelly, it would help if you had a better understanding of what a semi-automatic really is.

the only real differences are that semi autos feed the rounds vertically one by one. the revolver feeds in a revolving fashion one by one. the other diff is that semis may carry a couple more rounds in the mag.

the firing principle is very similar - one round fired per trigger pull. it's just a matter of how fast you can pull the trigger.

[saunterelle]

Thanks for the clarification new guy.

Big Dog, what frightens me is the staggering number of gun deaths in the US each year. It is more than all other industrialized nations combined. It seems that many Americans cannot be trusted to be responsible gun owners. Something must be done. What would you recommend?

[odin]

Nov 20, 2008 23:08:52 GMT -5 saunterelle said:

Nov 20, 2008 21:36:42 GMT -5 The Big Dog said:

How?

No more drive-bys, no more school shootings that kill many people, etc. Basically, it gives people the chance to escape instead of being mowed down by someone who can quickly pull the trigger.

This type of idiotic, nonsensical, illogical bullshit is exactly why I no longer post here. This bullshit is so far off base it isn't even funny. More people die in auto accidents. But do you hear saunterelle calling for he banning of all cars that can go faster then say 30mph? No. Because you can have a fool convince the entire world they are correct over guns, due to irrational fear, and that is all his emotional argument is based on. It certainly isn't reality, because it does not parallel reality at all.

Goodbye for good.
Bolverk

[The Big Dog]

Actually no, the number of deaths by firearm in the US is not higher than all other industrialized countries combined. And we've trotted out for you in other threads how there are fewer deaths by firearm than many other instrumentalities... last report it's number ten on the list and still falling.

Many Americans "can't be trusted"? We must "do something"? How wonderfully fascistic of you. Next I suppose that everyone who speaks against Barack can't be trusted.

Fact: There are upwards of 300 million firearms of all type, which includes tens of thousands of fully automatic weapons held in private collections, lawfully owned in this country.

The most recent statistical averaging I've seen is that the average gun owner has something on the order of 2 firearms. If you do the math, somewhere close to half the population of the US owns at least one firearm. Given that there are ~35,000 firearm deaths (of all types) annually, and having the previously noted figure that 99% + of all lawfully owned firearms are never used criminally, your hyperbolic statement that Americans can not be trusted is nothing more than that... pure hyperbole.

What about the 30,000 firearm control laws that are already on the book in this country? Do you know what they are and what they do? Have you measured their effectiveness? If not, then what basis in fact or law do you have to argue for more restriction? Talking points just won't do when it comes to debating an enumerated right.

Again... nearly all lawfully owned firearms are never misused so it seems to me that there really isn't much to recommend aside from locking up every jackass criminal who uses a firearm as an instrumentality forever. No parole, no nothing. Use a gun to commit a crime, go to jail forever.

Hell for that I'd let all the non-violent drug dealers go in a heartbeat.

But punishing and infringing on legitimate firearm owners even more than has already been done, particularly onerous here in California I might add, as you suggest is clearly not the answer. This can be seen simply by looking at violent crime statistics.

California's urban centers, where legitimate firearm ownership is especially frowned upon, has some of the highest rates of violent crime. Seems to reason that criminals might gravitate toward potential victims who they know can not resist. But across the nation in states as lightly populated as North Dakota and as densely populated as Texas or Florida citizens who choose to go armed, can. And violent crime in those states is sharply lower in most locales than national or regional averages.

Americans.... trusted to be responsible gun owners, and hence good citizens. Seems to work just fine.

Again, I do not begrudge you your opinion or your fear of firearms. And again, I ask that you do not begrudge me mine.

[saunterelle]

It is NOT an irrational fear. Once again, guns kill more people in America than in all the other industrialized nations combined. Our rate of death by automobile is in line with, or less than, other nations. That is why I'm not concerned about cars in America but I am concerned about guns.

Instead of running away, why don't you give us your solution to the gun death crisis America is facing.

[saunterelle]

Where do you get your statistics Big Dog? The United States has by far the highest rate of gun deaths -- murders, suicides and accidents -- among the world's 36 richest nations.

This info is based on a study by the CDC:
The study used 1994 statistics supplied by the 36 countries. Of the 88,649 gun deaths reported by all the countries, the United States accounted for 45 percent, said Etienne Krug, a CDC researcher and co-author of the article. Japan, where very few people own guns, averages 124 gun-related attacks a year, and less than 1 percent end in death. Police often raid the homes of those suspected of having weapons.

Here is the most recent chart I could find from 1994:

Here are gun-related deaths per 100,000 people in the world's 36 richest countries in 1994: United States 14.24; Brazil 12.95; Mexico 12.69; Estonia 12.26; Argentina 8.93; Northern Ireland 6.63; Finland 6.46; Switzerland 5.31; France 5.15; Canada 4.31; Norway 3.82; Austria 3.70; Portugal 3.20; Israel 2.91; Belgium 2.90; Australia 2.65; Slovenia 2.60; Italy 2.44; New Zealand 2.38; Denmark 2.09; Sweden 1.92; Kuwait 1.84; Greece 1.29; Germany 1.24; Hungary 1.11; Republic of Ireland 0.97; Spain 0.78; Netherlands 0.70; Scotland 0.54; England and Wales 0.41; Taiwan 0.37; Singapore 0.21; Mauritius 0.19; Hong Kong 0.14; South Korea 0.12; Japan 0.05. www.Guncite.com

[krevlob]

Columbia, though not one of the richest nations in the world, has a murder rate by guns more the 14 times that of the United State. South Africa has a murder rate by guns more then 20 times that of the United States murder by guns.

One thing you will not hear the moron say about gun related deaths in this country is that only 26.5% of all the deaths he is going on about are homicides. The other 73.5% are all suicides and do not pose any threat to the public at large.

This fact and this fact alone proves beyond a reasonable doubt that the little yellow bird is full of bovine scat. He uses deception, lies and trickery to put forth a point. Even in claiming that the United States has the highest gun death rate, he must only include non-violent, socialist societies that are tightly controlled and have less personal freedom then this country. He wants us to become them.

I say screw that crap. Let's tar and feather all people like him for the liars and deceivers they are and ship their little red asses over to one of those fine nations. We can send them to Singapore, one of the 36 countries included in his pathetic list. Or perhaps Hong Kong, Japan, Netherlands, Singapore, South Korea or Taiwan. Since he hates freedom so much, he would fit right in with these fine Industrialized Nations that put personal freedom at the top of their list.

And let me lastly say, you are lucky this is a public forum. Because I have some choice words for your socialist ideas and agenda. I will not sit aside while people like you try to steal my rights. I will do exactly as my fore fathers did and exercise my rights, up to and including the same sacrifices they made.

I believe in America and her people, you obviously don't trust them, which is why your communist as wishes to disarm them. I have no respect for you what so ever. I have known people like you all my life. You have all been wrong. And if you want to find out how wrong, push the issue and watch the revolution begin. Piss ant.

This is my absolute last post. Don't try to bait me back in here on this topic, you know how I feel, I despise all people who screw with my second amendment rights and equate them with Hitler, Tojo, Mussolini, Stalin and Pol Pot. This is by far the freest of all nations, I aim to keep it that way.

[subdjoe]

So, where is your PROOF, backed up by FACTS that getting rid of semi-auto firearms will drasticly reduce firearms related deaths? You must have something to back up your claim.

Oh,and please account for Switzerland which has more select fire weapons per capita in homes than any other nation. Hardly any "gun crime" there. Heck, shooting is the national sport. There is nothing unusual about seeing kids with guns walking the streets on the way to do some shooting. Why isn't blood running in the streets there? Your claim that semi-autos (and by extention full autos) cause people to be shot, why isn't Switzerland awash in blood?

[saunterelle]

Automatic weapons are banned. Why not semi-automatic as well?

I am not advocating communism. You can still own guns, just not high powered artillery that can take out many people. These weapons weren't around when our founding fathers wrote our constitution so they are up for debate.

[The Big Dog]

Nov 21, 2008 18:56:03 GMT -5 saunterelle said:

Automatic weapons are banned. Why not semi-automatic as well?

Fully automatic weapons are not banned. If you read my previous post there are tens of thousands of them in private collections around the country. They are more heavily regulated than other types of firearms is all.

And banning all semi-automatics would be an infringement of Amendment Two, especially so in light of the Heller decision.

I am not advocating communism. You can still own guns, just not high powered artillery that can take out many people. These weapons weren't around when our founding fathers wrote our constitution so they are up for debate.

Again... radio, television and the Internet were not around back then either so that puts Amendment One up for debate, by your deeply flawed logic.

I know it must be difficult for you to accept my posts on this subject as cogent, considering your apparent pathological issue with firearms, but if you woujld stop and read them through you might learn something and not repeatedly make such ill considered and illogical leaps of rhetoric that make you look kind of foolish.

[subdjoe]

Nov 21, 2008 18:56:03 GMT -5 saunterelle said:

Automatic weapons are banned. Why not semi-automatic as well?

I am not advocating communism. You can still own guns, just not high powered artillery that can take out many people. These weapons weren't around when our founding fathers wrote our constitution so they are up for debate.

In CA, yes they pretty much are. Most of the rest of the US they can be bought and owned by honest citizens. Ditto for REAL artillery. Just heavily taxed and regulated. So, yet another lie on your part.

And, as has been pointed out, our founders and frameres didn't envision TV, Radio, telephone, movies, the internet. The Constitution is consistent, if the 2nd is open to debate because the founders and framers didn't foresee the types of firearms available, then the 1st is, too for the same reason.

So, again I ask, what FACTS to you have to support your claim that banning semi autos for honest citizens would reduce homicides by means of firearm? PROOF, saunterelle, PROOF. Not just your uniformed opinion, but PROOF.

[surefire]

Nov 21, 2008 15:05:49 GMT -5 saunterelle said:

Thanks for the clarification new guy.

Big Dog, what frightens me is the staggering number of gun deaths in the US each year. It is more than all other industrialized nations combined. It seems that many Americans cannot be trusted to be responsible gun owners. Something must be done. What would you recommend?

Tougher laws for criminals that use guns.

Leave the law abiding citizens alone.