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Post by The Big Dog on Nov 21, 2008 19:51:25 GMT -5
Suanterelle if you are using 1994 data, you need to do better research. Try here. While the data is presented in a rather biased way, it does give something of a more recent picture. According to this report, between 1992 and 2003 deaths by firearms in the US fell overall. In the final three years of the period they edged up slightly, but they have largely continued to fall since with the exception of the heavily urbanized centers where lawful firearm ownership is officially discouraged. Brazil, a highly industrialized country which has attempted to pass ultra-restrictive firearms laws of late, continues to see violent criminals preying on newly disarmed populations. In 2003 alone, Brazil had over 39,000 firearm deaths. Mexico, where private firearm ownership is nearly banned, runs even with, if not ahead now, of Brazil. If one wants to sample the data solely on the basis of rate per 100,000 then you are going to get the data you want to see. What you don't see is, for example, the oft cited otherwise firearm free utopia of Japan. It is a rigidly regimented police state. If you think Bush was tough on the constitution, try living in Japan. Yet that doesn't keep thousands of homicides and suicides from happening there... just not without firearms. Again... it isn't about the firearms. It is about the people who use them.
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Post by saunterelle on Nov 21, 2008 20:07:03 GMT -5
Convincing argument Big Dog. I can see both sides of the issue. Good information source too.
Something must be done about the staggering number of gun deaths in this country and I just don't want to see everyone walking around toting a loaded gun. It would create a state of paranoia.
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Post by The Big Dog on Nov 21, 2008 20:19:15 GMT -5
It has not created a state of paranoia in the 40 states that have "shall issue" concealed carry, which includes the heavily populated and urbanized states of Florida and Texas. The streets are not "running red". No where in any of my argument have I said that I advocate "everyone walking around toting a loaded gun".
It is an issue of personal choice, and the truth be told there are not nearly as many concealed carry permits in the "shall issue" states as one might think. It simply is a matter of those that want to protect themselves, can. The state makes sure they aren't a criminal, sees to it that they have a fundemental knowledge of how the firearm works, what it can do and that they understand the legal and moral responsibilities of their choice. Then the state gets the hell out of the way and free citizens exercise their God given right to defend themselves if it should be necessary for them to do so.
It may seem like a far off concept but there is truth to the notion that an armed society is a polite society. And in a purer sense... when seconds count, the police are just minutes away.
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Post by subdjoe on Nov 21, 2008 20:22:11 GMT -5
Convincing argument Big Dog. I can see both sides of the issue. Good information source too. Something must be done about the staggering number of gun deaths in this country and I just don't want to see everyone walking around toting a loaded gun. It would create a state of paranoia. Well, not everyone would carry. So that is a useless argument. The antis always trot that equuine excrement out, EVERYONE would HAVE to carry. Just like every woman MUST have an abortion. And, why would it create a state of paranoia? The thugs you have to worry about already carry illegally now. Honest citizens you don't have to worry about. How would this ban change that. Now, how about you provide some PROOF to your theory that getting rid of semi autos would lead to a huge decline in firearms related deaths. Come on, Saunterlle, a savvy guy like you should be able to come up with honest FACTS and PROOF for your statement. |
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Post by The New Guy on Nov 21, 2008 20:30:42 GMT -5
It seems that many Americans cannot be trusted to be responsible gun owners. Something must be done. responsible gun owner don't commit gun crimes. criminals do! i would recommend that you find a study that details who actually committed those gun crimes. |
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Post by saunterelle on Nov 21, 2008 20:42:50 GMT -5
It seems that many Americans cannot be trusted to be responsible gun owners. Something must be done. responsible gun owner don't commit gun crimes. criminals do! i would recommend that you find a study that details who actually committed those gun crimes. So you think America is simply overrun with criminals who commit gun crimes? |
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Post by subdjoe on Nov 21, 2008 20:48:58 GMT -5
Check this out, a bit old, but illustrative: www.firearmsid.com/Feature%20Articles/0900GUIC/Guns%20Used%20in%20Crime.htmWhat guns are the most frequently traced? The most frequently traced guns vary from year to year. The ATF publishes a list of the 10 specific guns most frequently traced annually. The total number of traced guns on the top 10 list was 18% of the total traced 1991-94. Most of the top 10 guns were pistols (over 30% were .25 caliber pistols), although a number of revolvers and a few shotguns and rifles were also included. The most frequently traced gun was a Smith and Wesson .38 caliber revolver in 1990, the Raven Arms P25, a .25 caliber pistol from 1991 through 1993 , and the Lorcin P25 in 1994. 10 most frequently traced guns in 1994 Rank Manufac turer Model Caliber Type Number traced 1 Lorcin P25 .25 Pistol 3,223 2 Davis Industries P380 380A Pistol 2,454 3 Raven Arms MP25 .25 Pistol 2,107 4 Lorcin L25 .25 Pistol 1,258 5 Mossburg 500 12G Shotgun 1,015 6 Phoenix Arms Raven .25 Pistol 959 7 Jennings J22 .22 Pistol 929 8 Ruger P89 9 mm Pistol 895 9 Glock 17 9 mm Pistol 843 10 Bryco 38 .38 Pistol 820 Most of those hold 8 rounds or less. Lorcin, Jennings, Bryco, and Raven are all POS guns mostly known for problems in feeding and firing. Here is one from Time Magazine, 2000, www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,320383,00.html 1. Smith and Wesson .38 revolver 2. Ruger 9 mm semiautomatic 3. Lorcin Engineering .380 semiautomatic 4. Raven Arms .25 semiautomatic 5. Mossberg 12 gauge shotgun 6. Smith and Wesson 9mm semiautomatic 7. Smith and Wesson .357 revolver 8. Bryco Arms 9mm semiautomatic 9. Bryco Arms .380 semiautomatic 10. Davis Industries .380 semiautomatic Again, most hold 8 or less. So there goes your theory of throwing huge numbers of bullets downrange. and an interesting piece by ABC. abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=3083618&page=1So, saunterelle, how about some PROOF from you to back up your claims. |
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Post by surefire on Nov 21, 2008 20:49:32 GMT -5
Well said, The New Guy!
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Post by The New Guy on Nov 21, 2008 20:51:01 GMT -5
i think that the culture we have created (the glorification of "thug life") has contributed to that significantly. also, leniency by the court system towards violent criminals is to blame.
overrun with criminals? no. but criminals are fairly confident taht they can commit violent crimes without being stopped in the process by a pistol packing citizen. they feel relatively safe as long as the coppers don't happen to be around.
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Post by The Big Dog on Nov 21, 2008 21:19:32 GMT -5
So you think America is simply overrun with criminals who commit gun crimes? To a great degree... yes, yes I do. I base that not only on research but personal experience. There are, by most reckonings, something close to 50,000 gang members in the greater Los Angeles area alone. They perpetrate the overwhelming majority of homicides on the streets of LA. In 1997, there were 815 thousand gang members active in the US, and that number has been growing every year since then. This is why I strongly programs modeled after Project Exile which was supported by both the NRA and the Brady Campaign. The project, which began in Richmond, Virginia and is now a statewide program there, puts criminals using guns to commit crimes in federal prison for five years, minimum. Here is one very telling comment from the linked doc.... Want to see street violence decrease? Put away the bad actors that are perpetrating it, pure and simple. |
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Post by The New Guy on Nov 21, 2008 21:44:43 GMT -5
great article subdjoe!
"guns were banned and the gun crime DOUBLED!"
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Post by subdjoe on Nov 21, 2008 22:08:07 GMT -5
great article subdjoe! "guns were banned and the gun crime DOUBLED!" Thanks. Isn't it amazing what FACTS a little quick research can uncover. Speaking of FACTS, when are you going to post yours Saunterelle? Or, do you think that you have The Truth as preached by The Obama, you don't need FACTS? |
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