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Post by Mink on Jul 8, 2010 23:19:39 GMT -5
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Post by subdjoe on Jul 8, 2010 23:58:54 GMT -5
I think the key, or telling, point was when the expert witness for the defense admitted that he himself had, when he was LE, ended up with his firearm in his hand without realizing he had drawn it. And then the films of the defendant drawing and reholstering several times, and saying he was going to taze the guy.
I can buy thinking he had his tazer and not his firearm. Maybe what should come of this is training to draw the tazer only with the weak hand. Or maybe redesign the tazer so it doesnt look and feel like a firearm. Not sure HOW, but might be worth a look.
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Post by Mink on Jul 9, 2010 0:49:31 GMT -5
Without taking sides on the issue, my concern is, with the number of officers involved and suspects restrained, what is the reason one would need a taser?
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Post by subdjoe on Jul 9, 2010 9:44:41 GMT -5
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Post by Mink on Jul 9, 2010 11:34:58 GMT -5
Subdjoe, try to stay on topic and please don't tell me what I think regarding the police.
I respect authority and always will, especially cops, even Fuston. I'm just questioning why in the prone position, was a taser needed. It's not like the cop was outnumbered? Wouldn't one be able to feel the difference between a "light" taser and a "heavy" pistol?
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Post by The Big Dog on Jul 9, 2010 13:57:09 GMT -5
Some random thoughts... all strictly my personal or professional opinion.
a) The verdict was correct. The death of Oscar Grant was a tragedy, however there was no malice aforethought, no premeditation, no felony before the fact, and there was no sudden heat of passion. It was an accident, the body language of Mehserle on the video, and the officers around him is unmistakable, and should be to even a lay observer. His spontaneous statements on scene in the seconds after the shot was fired also speak strongly to this. Based on the totality of the evidence the state could not meet the burden of proof of the higher charges.
b) Mehserle's experience may or may not be a factor. He was on the job for slightly less than two years, but had plenty of opportunities to be in similar arrest situations so from that stand point it's fairly safe to assume that this was not new ground for him. He had no sustained complaints of inappropriate use of force in his file.
c) I can not speak to BART PDs Taser policy at the time, nor to how he was trained to deploy it. I do know that he had received his initial Taser training only a short time before the incident.
d) I can speak to his firearms training as he attended the Napa College academy and I am familiar with their program and many of the instructors. He was not trained to use his firearm in that manner, in that situation unless there was some indication of a deadly weapon. Oscar Grant was not handcuffed at the time he was shot, more on that later, and there was testimony given that Mehserle had said at some point before the shot was fired that he feared Grant might be armed.
e) Mehserle was armed with a Sig P226 .40 caliber pistol. I am intimately familiar with that particular weapon as I own one and carried it on the job for several years. It weighs 30.6 ounces unloaded, a bit more fully loaded. The Taser X26, which is the model I believe he had, is about ten ounces. While that is a very large difference, I can tell you categorically that when you are in that type of situation you most often do not notice the difference.
f) Tasers should never be carried on the strong side where the sidearm is carried. This has been proven, tragically, in a couple of instances where officers have grabbed the wrong weapon. In one case I am familiar with an officer grabbed the Taser he wore in a strong side thigh holster underneath his belt holstered sidearm, when confronting a suspect armed with a gun, and that officer was shot to death. Mehserle, I believe, had the Taser on his weak side in a cross draw so that should not have been a problem, however we can not know if at some point, perhaps in training, he did have the Taser strong side.
g) The officers were very much outnumbered. There were hundreds of people on the platform or on the train aside from the about equal number to them of people the officers were detaining or arresting. If you watch the video you can see some of the officers actively scanning the crowd while Mehserle and Pirone were dealing with the arrests to make sure no one was going to come in and interfere. This type of situation, even without the later factor of the shooting, can turn very ugly in a very quick hurry.
h) The video shows clearly that Oscar Grant had his hands underneath him when the shot was fired. You can clearly see his hands appear when Officer Pirone rolls him over after the shot was fired. Pirone testified that Grant would not pull his hands out from underneath himself to be handcuffed, the visuals on the videos bear this out. That would be a posture of resistance to being arrested and would be a justified deployment of a Taser under most of the use of force policies I am familiar with.
In summary, none of us can know what was in Mehserle's mind or what his eyes were seeing from his perspective. But based on what I see in the various videos, what I've read, and the evidence and testimony that was presented, the verdict of involuntary manslaughter... from Penal Code section 192:
Mehserle was in the commission of a lawful act; affecting an arrest within the course and scope of his duties as a peace officer, and his actions were, clearly, without due caution and circumspection and resulted in the death of Oscar Grant.
One thing I don't get is how they are tagging him with a firearm enhancement. I'm interested to know how they are doing that.
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Post by subdjoe on Jul 9, 2010 15:20:26 GMT -5
Mink, YOU wrote: Do you remember that? It wasn't that long ago, and you could scroll up to read exactly what you wrote. So, YOU are the one who brought up why a Tazer may be needed "with the number of officers and suspects restrained." All I was doing was trying to answer a concern YOU raised. So, if you take us off topic, don't bitch about it if someone continues on that track. Subdjoe, try to stay on topic and please don't tell me what I think regarding the police. I respect authority and always will, especially cops, even Fuston. I'm just questioning why in the prone position, was a taser needed. It's not like the cop was outnumbered? Wouldn't one be able to feel the difference between a "light" taser and a "heavy" pistol? |
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Post by Mink on Jul 9, 2010 19:44:05 GMT -5
Big Dog, thank you for your synopsis on the topic. You have answered my questions.....I now have more of an understanding of procedure. When you learn why the gun enhancement is tagged, will you explain??
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Post by Mink on Jul 9, 2010 19:46:51 GMT -5
Subdjoe, I thought my questions were legitimate and you suddenly jumped to conclusions and categorized me as someone who screams "police brutality"......you were wrong. I just needed an explanation as a lay person.
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Post by subdjoe on Jul 9, 2010 21:43:52 GMT -5
Subdjoe, I thought my questions were legitimate and you suddenly jumped to conclusions and categorized me as someone who screams "police brutality"......you were wrong. I just needed an explanation as a lay person. And I gave you an explanation of it by examples. I too am a layman, and fully understood why a LEO on the spot may have thought that a Taser would be useful. It really isn't all that difficult if you pay attention to the world around you and don't automatically assume excessive force by LE. Your question, despite your disclaimer, was biased against cops. |
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Post by JustMyOpinion on Jul 9, 2010 23:34:57 GMT -5
All of the technicalities aside, it really pisses me off that some people use a situation like this to damage property and act like bunch of spoiled children. Once people demonstrate that type of behavior I lose all interest.
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Post by Mink on Jul 10, 2010 0:18:29 GMT -5
Subdjoe, I thought my questions were legitimate and you suddenly jumped to conclusions and categorized me as someone who screams "police brutality"......you were wrong. I just needed an explanation as a lay person. And I gave you an explanation of it by examples. I too am a layman, and fully understood why a LEO on the spot may have thought that a Taser would be useful. It really isn't all that difficult if you pay attention to the world around you and don't automatically assume excessive force by LE. Your question, despite your disclaimer, was biased against cops. You're just finding an excuse to judge me subdjoe, plain & simple! Having read numerous articles, others had the same question I did regarding the taser. It's not a tool for daily use and because of that, people ask and shouldn't be misconstrued as biased- for shame!! |
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