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Post by saunterelle on Jan 29, 2009 16:24:57 GMT -5
It is worse to commute the sentence of two individuals who have been found guilty and then found doubly guilty again by an appellate review.
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Post by harpman1 on Jan 29, 2009 16:27:20 GMT -5
Nothing The Boy President did was wrong.
Especially the "cigar" event.
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Post by saunterelle on Jan 29, 2009 16:29:24 GMT -5
Nothing The Boy President did was wrong. Especially the "cigar" event. It was morally wrong (although it was clearly consensual). |
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Post by moondog on Jan 29, 2009 16:38:22 GMT -5
I've been waiting to hear a logical justification for this pardon after hearing the Right Wing pundits continue to blather on and on about illegal immigration and drug smuggling. It wasn't a pardon, it was a commutation of sentence to time served, which the President has an unfettered authority to do under the Constitution. They are still convicted felons for what they did, which the President by his actions and statements thinks they should be (as do I). They are just getting out of jail early is all. Which, with an eye to what justice really is, would be about the best outcome all things considered. The sentences were, IMO, too harsh, and I've agreed with their supporters on that respect since they were first sentenced. But as I pointed out repeatedly there was no room for discretion by the judge in sentencing under the statutes enacted by the Congress that form the sentencing guidelines. Again, I defer to your opinion on this. You have far more experience with things like this then I do. I feel your points are on the mark and something I can learn from. Thank you. |
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Post by moondog on Jan 29, 2009 16:40:06 GMT -5
You're right, he didn't pardon a tax cheat. Just a couple of cowards who abused the power entrusted to them by trying to shoot a guy in the back while he was running away. Lets put this into clearer perspective. Ramos & Compean were tried and found guilty by a competent court, and the verdict was upheld on appellate review. They were not pardoned, their sentences were commuted. Marc Rich, the massive tax cheat being referenced (I think) above, was pardoned by President Clinton outright... before any competent court had ever heard the case against him. After his wife bundled up a few million dollars in contributions to the Bill Clinton Presidential Library / Slush Fund. Marc Rich was never tried... Bill Clinton completely subverted justice, but since the Presidential power of pardon is absolute and unchallengeable....... Comparing Marc Rich's full pardon to the commutation of sentence in the Ramos / Compean case is a wholly fallacious, apples to oranges comparison. They are two seperate and mutually exclusive issues. Except in the context you put it. Clinton bypassed justice while Bush let the courts decide the guilt. That is the only comparison I was putting forth. |
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Post by moondog on Jan 29, 2009 16:42:02 GMT -5
It is worse to commute the sentence of two individuals who have been found guilty and then found doubly guilty again by an appellate review. Doubly guilty huh? One thing comes to mind.  |
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Post by harpman1 on Jan 29, 2009 16:43:24 GMT -5
Morally wrong is bad for George, but OK for Bill.
Hmmm....
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Post by saunterelle on Jan 29, 2009 16:56:23 GMT -5
Morally wrong is bad for George, but OK for Bill. Hmmm.... I'll go back to the old tagline: "When Bush lied, people died." |
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Post by saunterelle on Jan 29, 2009 16:57:51 GMT -5
Lets put this into clearer perspective. Ramos & Compean were tried and found guilty by a competent court, and the verdict was upheld on appellate review. They were not pardoned, their sentences were commuted. Marc Rich, the massive tax cheat being referenced (I think) above, was pardoned by President Clinton outright... before any competent court had ever heard the case against him. After his wife bundled up a few million dollars in contributions to the Bill Clinton Presidential Library / Slush Fund. Marc Rich was never tried... Bill Clinton completely subverted justice, but since the Presidential power of pardon is absolute and unchallengeable....... Comparing Marc Rich's full pardon to the commutation of sentence in the Ramos / Compean case is a wholly fallacious, apples to oranges comparison. They are two seperate and mutually exclusive issues. Except in the context you put it. Clinton bypassed justice while Bush let the courts decide the guilt. That is the only comparison I was putting forth. Exactly. The courts determined guilt and sentence. Then, Bush stood in the way of justice being served. Much worse than a pardon before a case was even heard. |
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Post by moondog on Jan 29, 2009 17:20:40 GMT -5
Morally wrong is bad for George, but OK for Bill. Hmmm.... I'll go back to the old tagline: "When Bush lied, people died." When Obama lied people died. Just look at Pakistan. |
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Post by moondog on Jan 29, 2009 17:22:58 GMT -5
I disagree. These men spent time in prison. Mark Rich needs to spend time in prison. I have to pay taxes upon threat of jail, loosing my home and much more. He stole from all of the American people and never had to answer once for the crime. He is as clean as a new born baby, thanks to Bill. These two still have a felony on their record. That is what you fail to comprehend. |
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Post by barneyfife on Jan 29, 2009 17:23:33 GMT -5
You're right, he didn't pardon a tax cheat. Just a couple of cowards who abused the power entrusted to them by trying to shoot a guy in the back while he was running away. Are you serious right now? Old billy boy commuted or pardoned/commuted 456 people man.... Not too many of those were the guy who stole 4 lbs of butter. A great many were dope dealers of all varieties. www.usdoj.gov/pardon/clintonpardon_grants.htmHis Commutations were nearly ALL Dope dealers you know the nice PCP dealers down the street. And the occasional kidnapper.... www.usdoj.gov/opa/commutationspaocht.htm |
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