Fore!!!

[JustMyOpinion]

And, moondog, this is from one of your links (interesting):

Education Research Center and Ed-

California only spends 3.3% of its taxable resources on education, ranking 37th behind other states.

And, I [glow=red,2,300]love[/glow] this tidbit:

California spends $115,000 per year to keep a juvenile inmate, compared to under $8,000 for educating a juvenile in a California public school. (Commonwealth Juvenile Justice Program, 2006)

See, wouldn't be much cheaper to efficiently educate our children with the best educators have to offer, and offer the best available testing if needed?

I wonder how much prison costs...

I know the system is screwed up, no disagreement there. It seems the cart is always in front of the horse.

[moondog]

Jan 28, 2009 16:09:07 GMT -5 JustMyOpinion said:

TBD/moondog:

Ok you two, do you think I drive a Volkswagen bus with pretty flowers, and a peace sign on it?

How many public schools in SOCO have fund raisers similar to private schools? I know in Marin a small part of what makes their public schools so successful is fund raising to offset the lack of direct funding by the state. The schools can control where the money goes and you can bet there is accountability for it.

Private schools have parent run board members that work with the school's administration to help to decide where money is spent. SO, if that model is successful, and if PUBLIC schools were to operate the same way AFTER generating additional income from fund raisers far from the reach of the bureaucratic fat cats, wouldn't that be a helpful solution, at least for now? Especially since money isn't trickling down to the children where it is needed. Marin offsets their public schools budget by hundreds of thousands of dollars every year, do you think they have dilapidated classrooms? Or, poor academic results? I'm just sayin...

Though an increase in school funding may produce results at some point, it would never produce results in the current system. It is to damaged, to controlled by legislature. That is clearly the fault of the left, who has been in charge of this state for more then 35 years. Until they are removed and a major philosophical change occurs in the party, they will not be fit to run our schools. Local districts need more say and the State needs to relinquish some control. It is called freedom to act. It is why this country was based on individual rights and not a strong central government. To bad politician don't get it.

[moondog]

Jan 28, 2009 16:18:25 GMT -5 JustMyOpinion said:

To add:
I read one of your links moondog and see that CA teachers make more (I don't have a problem with that), cost of living is higher here...

I get it that money is being siphoned from where it is really needed by wasteful spending. So, what do we do about it? Let the state slide into 50th place? Blame the Democrats and gloat that "they" are jerks, ignorant... Education is so critical to the well being of this state, and country for that matter. It is so upsetting to be a native Californian (as you are) and watch this state go down the toilet. Flush...

Read deeper. Pay is not based on performance or difficulty of the course. A P.E. teacher with ten years tenure will make the same as a science teacher with ten years tenure. Where is the incentive for the science teacher to perform when the science teacher clearly has the more difficult task?

This, more then anything else, points out just how poorly the NEA is performing for this nation.

[subdjoe]

Jan 28, 2009 16:25:28 GMT -5 JustMyOpinion said:

Jan 28, 2009 13:56:45 GMT -5 subdjoe said:

JMO, the problem I have is the idea that everyone has to feel good about everything they do all the time. You SHOULDN'T feel good if you screw up. You SHOULD feel bad and try harder, or ask for help. But when kids are praised no matter what they do, that creates a false sense of accomplishment and self esteme. When a kid knows he or she has lived up to, or exceeded, a standard, then they know that they have done something of which they can be proud.

Also, some accountability helps. If a kid knows that no matter what, nothing bad will happen, then why bother putting out the effort? If they know that something unpleasnt will happen if they don't measure up, they try harder.

First of all, not all kids can function like a "normal" child and need the "atta-boy" to gain confidence and become independent.. I know you can't believe it, but it's true. I don't think anybody (that I know) ever said kids shouldn't have accountability, maybe it's the method of accountability that we differ.

I know that not all kids can function in a 'normal' fashion. Never said they did. But it isn't that large a percentage. DON'T mainstream them. That hurts both them and the 'normal' students. Because the way things are now, the teachers have to try to teach to them, not the normals. But the egalatarian left thinks that everyone needs to be, and is equal in everything. They take the "all men are created equal" literally rather than seeing the individual. They scream that the special classes stimatise and traumatise the students. Maybe, maybe not. But mainstreaming them doesn't do anyone any favors. It holds everyone back.

As for accountability, I've seen kids papers that have the eccentricity of Middle English spelling come back with Good Job! and the like on them. Not the way to hold the kids accountable.

JMO wrote: "Private schools have parent run board members that work with the school's administration to help to decide where money is spent. SO, if that model is successful, and if PUBLIC schools were to operate the same way AFTER generating additional income from fund raisers far from the reach of the bureaucratic fat cats, wouldn't that be a helpful solution, at least for now? "

Except that according to the professionals in the education industry parents don't know anything about schools or education. And, they are too likely to demand that the money be spent effectively rather than on pet programs the promote good feelings. Nope, ask any education professional and you will find how incompetent We the People are.

[moondog]

JMO, I hope you find what you seek in the documents about our schools. I have enjoyed our debates and I hope you did the same. I apologize if I crossed any lines.

[JustMyOpinion]

subdjoe, in response to:

I know that not all kids can function in a 'normal' fashion. Never said they did. But it isn't that large a percentage. DON'T mainstream them. That hurts both them and the 'normal' students. Because the way things are now, the teachers have to try to teach to them, not the normals. But the egalatarian left thinks that everyone needs to be, and is equal in everything. They take the "all men are created equal" literally rather than seeing the individual. They scream that the special classes stimatise and traumatise the students. Maybe, maybe not. But mainstreaming them doesn't do anyone any favors. It holds everyone back. As for accountability, I've seen kids papers that have the eccentricity of Middle English spelling come back with Good Job! and the like on them. Not the way to hold the kids accountable.

I agree if a child has severe behavior problems, or learning disabilities the "normal" kids will be hindered.

I know in some alternative schools kids of three different age groups/grades are in one class together, and the older children help the younger as part of a leadership process. Or, if a child is very strong in math he/she helps the child that is struggling. This system is a win-win because the child helping the younger child feels empowered and independent, and the younger child feels accepted by peers and not judged. There's more than one way to teach children, but the public schools measure each child as if they are all developing at the same rate, and that's how they are graded. Sometimes a child may need a slightly different method of instruction, maybe verbal instruction is processed better than written for example, not all children learn the same way, or adults either for that matter.

My argument is, if a child has trouble with a subject and really tries to accomplish a task but doesn't get it quite right then yes, the "good job" is important followed by tactful guidance. If all the child remembers from the task is that aren't good/smart enough they will over time stop trying. I've said this before, and I don't think kids are dogs, but at the basic level if you kick a dog to train him he will eventually bite you, if you reinforce his behaviors positively he will fondly remember his lessons and give all he's got to prove it you. People in general have a need to feel validated, or heard. Children need it even more because they aren't fully developed and don't have any successes to draw from when they fail.

Just a few thoughts...

[JustMyOpinion]

Jan 30, 2009 13:54:04 GMT -5 @moondog said:

JMO, I hope you find what you seek in the documents about our schools. I have enjoyed our debates and I hope you did the same. I apologize if I crossed any lines.

The link you posted regarding schools is informative and I will reference it. You seem to know how to access information that is difficult for some of us to find.

I have enjoyed our debates, and you have shown restraint (with me) and I really do appreciate that, and your apology too.

You do have a lot of passion around the direction of our country and it is admirable. I too have concerns and I think I can safely say we all do. Some in the forum don't have your opinions, but that doesn't mean they are wrong and you right. I understand that you want people to see how things work and how we got to this place, but on the other hand others feel the same way about their positions just as passionately and when neither side listens nothing is gained except maybe animosity. I love this country because we can have different opinions and can freely express them. I think it is important (especially now, economy etc) that we take a moment to TRY and get something from each other's point of view not that we all have to agree, but at least to understand that we are all in this together and the one common thread is that we are all Americans, and we all love our country despite our differences. A good example: Democrats and Republicans are fighting wars together as Americans despite differences, and they cover each others backs in the worst possible circumstances and I don't think we should behave any differently.

I'm jumping off the soap box now...

[moondog]

Jan 28, 2009 16:18:25 GMT -5 JustMyOpinion said:

To add:
I read one of your links moondog and see that CA teachers make more (I don't have a problem with that), cost of living is higher here...

I get it that money is being siphoned from where it is really needed by wasteful spending. So, what do we do about it? Let the state slide into 50th place? Blame the Democrats and gloat that "they" are jerks, ignorant... Education is so critical to the well being of this state, and country for that matter. It is so upsetting to be a native Californian (as you are) and watch this state go down the toilet. Flush...

How about stopping the Democratic politicization of school systems and lets get some comprehensive reform. Right now, our system is in disarray, so we can not even tell what is effective and what is not. Which makes the whole system ineffective. Throwing money at it will not fix the problems we currently have.

[JustMyOpinion]

moondog, if schools need money for supplies, trips etc. I still say fundraisers are a good idea to offset the money that isn't trickling down where it's really needed.

[subdjoe]

Feb 2, 2009 15:59:06 GMT -5 JustMyOpinion said:

moondog, if schools need money for supplies, trips etc. I still say fundraisers are a good idea to offset the money that isn't trickling down where it's really needed.

Yeah, good idea. BUT it avoids the question of WHY isn't all that money getting into the places in the schools it needs to be? Maybe a few hundred thousand could be siphoned off to do a state wide audit to find out how much waste there is in the school industry. Top to bottom.

[moondog]

Let me ask a serious question here JMO. If the government is failing in its duty to educate our children because of a poorly designed education funding vehicle, in spite of the fact that they have enough money, why should anyone do a fundraiser as opposed to pointing out the problems and then fixing the system. As pointed out in the one article, it is not a lack of funding, but merely a poorly designed system that abrogates responsibility for the outcome because of how the funding is designated to be spent. In other words, there have been to many "feel good" plans rather then action.

Now, since this state has been wholly Democrat since before I started voting, why should I continue to poor good money after bad when the problem is as plain as the nose on a politicians face. Progressives have had complete and utter control over our schools since I was a student. Yet, with the ever increasing levels of underfunding, not listening to parents, failed micro management, poor management and decision making on the part of those very progressives, why should I stand behind a plan of local fundraisers when there is ample money to do the job? Why not fire every progressive and start finding people who really want to save our education system, as opposed to experiment with it.

[JustMyOpinion]

moondog, this is a quick response I'm short on time, BUT:

I agree the system needs to be corrected, but how long is that going take, if ever? Meanwhile kids are getting short changed (so to speak) and that is the biggest problem. If the allocation of funds is being swindled by the big fat bureaucrats then why don't "the people" step up to benefit the young and their educational experience?